Category: accessible Devices
I have a very key question of the new accessible age. Why do AT companies like HumanWare and Freedom Scientific waiste their time making things that won't matter to anyone in the next two years? Really, what's the point? I mean: We've got Android on the horizon, Microsoft making Narrator cooler, and Apple rocking the house with VoiceOver. We've got GPS apps, and loads of notetaking apps. Why bother?
That's a very good question. My guess is that companies like humanware won't be around much longer.
I would imagine that allot of it has to do with all the government agencies who purchase the tech for their clients. They'll stick with what they know. Hopefully, the trend you mention, having accessibility built into products, will continue to grow and improve, thus iliminating the need for these over-priced products.
It also has to do with personal choice. As long as people continue to buy these products, and there will always be some, though the numbers are certainly dwindling, the companies will remain in existence. Also, a company like Freedom scientific isn't simply going to disappear, they do make Jaws after all, and unless a similar scripting ability is built into Voiceover anytime in the near future, they can continue to charge ridiculous prices not only for Jaws, but for their other outdated products as well.
Specialist company good or specialist thing such as braille note taker, braille displays and so on. However, they need to reevaluate their accountability towards the consumers and their state holders.
I hate to break it, but I think that some of you see my point, but HumanWare and others are going to die a long and painful death. I mean, personal choice, but what about the next generation? What if the BrailleNote is locked away in some seccluded government office, and never seen again, and all the purse strings are pulled. Will they continue for the majority?
Companies that have braille displays as products will never die. Not unless blind people stop using braille altogether. This could theoretically happen, but not for at least another hundred years. I personally, hope that it will never happen. Otherwise, blind spelling will only continue to become worse and worse.
Screen readers could eventually die a slow and painful death however, especially with readers like NVDA and the improving Narator and voiceover readers out there. It's something that only time will tell about, regardless.
Like you, I hope that the use of Braille will never die. That would be a sad world indeed.
The use of braille will never die, there're people dependent on that to communicate. Lets also don't forget those that come from the developing countries and blind people from the third world, where, advance technology like the IPhone, Androy phone, and that is not available for them.
I do agree with MD though, 3rd party screen reader may gone out before braille does. Specially with the capability of internal screen reader such as Voiceover, and open source screen reader such as NVDA or such.
What will happen though, it will make companies like Freedom Scientific, Humanware, GWMicro, Hims, etc etc will be more accountable for what they are doing, as it is no longer a monopoly game for them. They need to dare i say, be competable with each other, and creating a greater product.
Also, lets don't forget the deafblind users, people who need and rely on a braille display or braille note taker to communicate.
That's primarily why they'll stick around, don't you agree? For the sake of the deafblind, unless some hearing breakthrough is made, Braille will live among us, deaf or not.
I personally prefer braille over the screen reader, if i have the choice to choose between those two
Same here. But I think that if we could make our own Braille displays, that would be even cooler!
Food for thought, jaws is around because it can be scripted, sorry NVDA can not work with CCE "a call center program" that is used in a call center. Also keep in mind some companies used their own built with in the company applications. If you do not work as a screenreader with those apps, then we as blind people are screwed out of that job. This is why FS still exist as a company to day. Now for note takers, this is where I agree, my phone kills any new note taker coming out :) even kills the Iphone 5 in hardware.
True. But let's face it, we cannot run from it, no matter hard you try: there's going to come a day when Narrator, VoiceOver, Android, and NVDA can script themselves. What will FS do then? They can only thrive off their Braille displays. Then we must turn our attention to the magnifiers. What about the day and age when implants come to pass, then what FS and HumanWare do?
There're people that depend on it. There're people in this world that implant won't help, or surgery won't help. It works if you live in the most perfect world, but what about those who doesn't have such fasility, e.g. africa, south america, asia?
We always think about ourselves, how well and bad our situation are, but what about those, who don't even have the opportunity to think of themselves?
The advancing of technology is great, to the develop world, but at the same time, it also build a grater barier between develop and non-develop countries.
We are talking about IPhone, Androy, Computer, Screen readers, when there're parts of the world don't even have proper braille paper to braille on, proper support and resources to train and develop?
And dare i ask, how companies like Microsoft, Google, Apple, Humanware, Freedom Scientific, well, you name it support the rest of the world while the rest of us paying them big money to support them?
Is about time to look beyond the square box, beyond our neighbourhood, beyond our country.
Thank you for bringing up my next point, Buttercup. What of the countries were there is very little support? Your point brings up a good question. How do third-worlders get screenreader support, when Freedom Scientific has no dominion in that particular country? I know about Japan's screenreaders, but what about such places as Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakkistan, or any other place of that nature? I'd imagine that FS and others have some exportable copies, to send there, but let's face it, there's online licensing now. Any thoughts?
I hadn't even considered Braille displays, probably because I can't afford one and doubt I'll ever be able to. Anyway, they are awesome products so hopefully they and braille will be around until the end of time.
I agree with you. Braille is key. No blind person should not live life without that basic knowledge.
I concur. Unfortunately, with technology advancing the way it is, schools would rather slap an IPad in a child's hands than take the time and effort to introduce Braille. To be fair, the same is happening for sighted children, to. Laptops and Apple products are being placed into students' hands at younger and younger ages. That's just one huge flaw in the educational system, in my opinion.
I agree but when I wrote my post , it was coming from a beeing employed or trying to get some form of employment and the dedicated programs that some company's have spent a lot of money on. You guessed it, CCE is not cheep and if any of you run into it so far jaws is the only one that I have seen that will work with CCE. Just food for thought when talking about FS and its presents in the work place.
That's why the Luna Laws (or Loony Laws as I call them) of Idaho are such a bad idea. School Superintendent Tom Loony has been saying for several years that tax payers need to pay for every student in every school in Idaho to have a laptop. That in itself is ridiclous but what with kids being kids the costs are bound to get out of hand real quick.
Odd, they must have such guides in Virginia. But the flip is this: you bring the laptop, we don't buy it for you. Here in Virginia Beach, you've a red/green zone concept. For green zone, you can use your laptop, red you can't.
I prefer braille over speech myself and agree with all Butter Cup has said completely.
FS honestly strives to keep us updated, so will remain. You might not like the pricing, but face it, good tech cost money. You talk about Apple and Voice Over. Apple products cost premium money, and are worth every premium dollar you pay.
The cheaper companies won't catch up, because they don't have the development dollars to do so. They are a blessing for these that don't have access to FSGW or other products, or are to lazy to gain access.
I know my last statement will rub some wrong, however, if you are a young person growing up in the US or a developed country, simply attending college, or a training program will get you these products. You must keep up your subscriptions, sure, but that cost is only about $10 per month?
I personally don't have a braille display, but use braille books as my primary source of reading.
I won't call FS' Jaws as great product. Yes, it does the job all right, but when come to great product, i think the defination of "great" and "good" is almost non-existing on their mind. As far as i'm concern, Jaws haven't really improve much since 8.0 Version.
Company like FS can do and survive the way they want because they know that even if they charge top $$$, there will be people paying for it. Ethic, and providing a honest and real product is not their priority. They are more interested in making top money by sucking us dry and clean.
Agreed. In this light, NVDA can thrive. If people switch to NVDA, and NVDA ups its game, then Freedom can only live off Magic and whatever else they sell.
Hmm... I wont go into a NVDA verses Jaws debate but food for thought, can NVDA allow a person to work efficiently in a proprietary software environment? Just looking past every day use to employment not home use, or school use.
I agree. When it comes to out of the home use NVDA just can't cut it. Next if you look at it honestly you can't use many things with 8.0 you can with 13 or 14 or even 12 or 7.0 for the Window eyes. you use daily, Mess up and need a new computer with Windows 7 and IE 9, not to talk about websites and applications required for use Daily you'll need the latest Jaws or Window eyes. Its just how it is.
It is not freedom's or GW's fault that technology marches on, so they try hard to keep up, and that cost money.
I'm not a Window Eyes user, but I've been hearing some pretty good things about the new version. Supposedly, you'll be able to access safe mode with it. If that's true, and it works as advertised, it will be the first screen reader to allow that. As for Jaws, I'm using 14 now, and the new Flexible Web feature is pretty nice. You can hide all that clutter crap like google ads frames and stuff. That way you can read your websites without having to skip over a bunch of stuff. yeah, convenient OCR is anything but, and Research it is a complete waste, but I have to say that at least this time they nailed a pretty good feature. My verdict is, while I agree with what someone said about FS especially trying to boost their overinflated egos by charging out the ass, paid products aren't going away any time soon, unless NVDA catches up fast, which is kind of unlikely to happen. Not because they don't care, or don't want to see their product succeed, but because they're operating on the principle that a free product alone will draw customers. And, while it does, they're also only running on donations, and if those dry up, we're all screwed out of a third option. I don't know if other projects like Thunder are still going or not, but from my understanding that particular one never quite took off.
Thunder was crap, I must admit it. But I just thought of something that some of you may see stupid or ludicrous. How ,in Windows 7 or 8 do you use the DOS console, and does JAWS wolk well with it. I've a class on DOS coming up, and wonder if Freedom Scientific still care about DOS (not likely).
ForReal, have you try WindowEyes 7.2? Have you honestly try it? I think WindowEyes is as good as Jaws, if not better. Grunted, the way how WindowEyes work and how Jaws work is different, so does how NVDA and System Access work compare to other product. I think the problem though, is consumers ourselves are too comfortable with a certain product, and refuse, or rather, deny for the change to take place. Is like people complaining about how Voiceover is not functioning, how Braillesense is not live to its expectation like Braillenote does and that, the reason why mainly is because one can't forget that they are different product, work for different reason and platform.
In order to answer Starfly's question about NVDA, yes, i did use it in an employment environment, i even go as far as using it with Powerpoint and XL etc, and liking it a lot. There's nothing wrong with NVDA on IE9, FireFox and most of the mainstream program. Of course, when you talking about purpose build program, even Jaws or WindowEyes, or any of the screenreader in fact, will struggle one way or another.
while I agree with some of your points about people not wanting to leave there comfort zone "lord knows I know what that is like with my phone's OS" There is some things that win eyes and jaws can do that system access and NVDA have some ketching up to. The programs I was refurring to were not MS office programs rather programs that are made for a specific environments like call center.
:) I use what keeps me employed not what just might work and cross my fingers hope it gets the job done.
I've fooled around a bit Butter Cup. My problem is my upgrades for Jaws cost me about 200 every 24 months, and if I changed to Window Eyes I'll have to pay around 650 700. Jaws is doing what I require, so I stay.
I hear the 8.0 is working really well too.
I'd say you are correct about Voice Over.
Also these screen readers are going to be different, so it is just an adjustment period, or learning curve. Many people don't want to do it. I really like Voice Over on my iPhone. I think its a neat product. If I had a Mac it is what I'd use not alter it for Windows or whatever.
What about a Linux machine? I've heard good things, and want to try it out, badly!
ForReal, I'm not sure where you got your information about Windoweyes upgrade costing around $600/700. As my understanding, from GWMicro website itself...
Window-Eyes: $895.00
Window-Eyes 2-Upgrade SMA: $199.00
Window-Eyes 3-Upgrade SMA: $299.00
Payment Plan: As low as $39.00/month
60 Day Evaluation: $39.00
http://www.gwmicro.com/window-eyes/
So, can you please let me know where you got your $600/$700 costing for upgrade from? I'm very interested to know, and i'm sure lots of zoners are interested. Either GWMicro has drop their price rapetly, or some misleading sources floating around the places. If the ladder, i think we should report to GWMicro, don't you think?
I agree, please, site your sources.
I believe that what was meant was that JAWS was being used, where as window-eyes cost around $700 at the time. That was the reason for not purchasing window-eyes. Also, I don't know why GwMicro would sell an evaluation. They've got a demo, so why do they need to sell one? Finally, I don't know which applications fail with NVDA, but you should know that it can be scripted, as well as using the different review commands and the OCR add-on. My guess was that these commands were either not known or not available when you tried.
That is a neat ad-on. And scripting, like Synth said, is possible. We've ad-ons a million here on Planet NVDA (please notete that this is a figure of speech).
I thinke for the 60 days eveluation package is that you get all the features within the 60 days without limit like you may have for demo version in terms of the time limit etc. Its definitely something that i will consider, if i'm going to get a screen reader for windows, if, i choose to stay with windows platform
Why on earth would you want to use a 60 day evaluation. Is a demo not good enough?
I have not read all of your messages, but I can somewhat understand where everyone is coming from. I am more of a Fredom Scientific buyer because I am slow in technology, yet the next generation or two will be ahead of this business. I have asked one other business which makes the talking check book why not have one account with sub accounts. I do not know if they have improved their program, but I know I am stuck with the old. I also know if businesses like these don't hurry up and catch up with times the other computer companies and blind community will pull ahead of them.
If it is like my Mom used to bake pumpkin seeds, it was just on a cookie sheet, probably sprayed with pam, than salted them afterwards.
What on earth? Were you trying to use an anology? But anyway, I think that if Narrator finds its way onto tablets, Freedom might as well be done.
Okay sorry about my pricing, however it was an example.
Butter Cup. I don't have a source however some third party dealers were selling Window Eyes for the prices I stated. I have not shopped for it for a long time, so can't say what the current price is except as quoted on the GW sight as you have posted.
Offten times, even Jaws, can be purchased for less if you shop.
Now if I am going to be exact, my Jaws upgrade cost me $260 last time I purchased it, and yes that price is for 24 monts, because I don't purchased it but every 2 years.
You can understand why I'm not paying the new cost to start fresh with another screen reader, why should I, when the product I now have does exactly what I need and has served me in the corprit world nicely over the years?
If anyone is seriously wanting to purchase Window Eyes you might check atguys.com and some other dealers for a lower price, or even purchase the licenses from someone that owns it already. That give you a lesser price on it.
Just because I love to shop, and believe anything can be had for less if you are willing to look, I found this sight in about 3 minutes.
Now if they are miss quoting report them, I'm not seriously in the market. Lol
They claim the Windows Eyes can be had for 500 to 999
http://www.axistive.com/gw-micro-window-eyes.html
I didn't see it actually on the atguys website. The icon to click to get to it says there are no products under it anymore, so contact them directly and see what happened.
There are other dealers that sell assisted tech to us at discounted pricing at well. Do some searching?
Narrator won't be as advance as Jaws or Windoweyes or dare i say, Voiceover. Don't forget, company like Freedom ScienceFiction and GWMicro do pay some sort of loyalty fee to Microsoft. Thats my understanding anyway. So, will they allow their Narrator to be better than any of the windows orientate screen reader? most probably not. As long as blind people will support Freedom ScienceFiction and GWMicro, as long as Microsoft will get some sort of loyalty fee from them, they won't make Narrator as equally accessible as any of the screenreader. However, by saying that, Narrator is getting better and better each windows major upgrade, and most probably enough for a basic computer user to survive on most tasks. don't forget, NVDA also play a big role on this too. If anything, i would like to see NVDA be available for the Mobile market, that will be definitely interesting and exciting.
ForReal, i'm not shopping for any screen reader myself too, but before you posting any facts like that, i will highly urge you to do a little of research rather just blind posting on the board. Your post may impact on some other people that may not have the knowledge or ability to do research for themselves.
Buttercup, your right. Freedom ScienceFiction and Gw Crapcrow are going to live off royalty fees until they're put away by something better. A good way to put them down would be to augment Android accessibility. If we can get enough converts, then what do the Windows companies do next?
:) as most if not all you know I have been an android convert for a will but sense company's still use some form of propriatary software in the work place freedomscientific and win eyes will be around for a long time. As long as Jaws allows me to put food on the table, I am going to use it at work and at home. To be fare here, if some day android flops and I am not able to do bar code scanneing, OCR and etc then android will go out the door for me, off to something else accessible. Something I can use at home for work when the need arises and some times it does.
Lol, Gw Crapcro? That's a new one. I've heard Freedom Science Fiction before, and for the most part i agree with it. The one thing that can be said for GW is that at least they offer payment plans. They realize that blind people aren't made of cash, and really, it has nothing to do with being blind anyway. Lots of sighted people are strapped for cash too, and appreciate payment plans. Would the average person pay full price for a car, for example, go home and never have to worry about a payment afterwards? Hell no. GW is offering that service and people are appreciating it. Now, I'm not a Window Eyes user myself, because I've used Jaws for so long that when I did try a demo of Window Eyes once, the commands seemed a bit backwards to me. But I do have great respect for anyone who's not forcing one size to fit all as Freedom Science Fiction is doing, and has done ever since its inception, and will continue to do until its either shut down or driven to change its policies by diminishing sales.
Then of course you've the guys at Serotek. There cool.
If I say something is this or that way then you are correct. I do research and am 100% sure of my facts. But if I am just talking in general I'm not going to research everything I say.
I think most people if they had noticed my pricing would have had to go and try to buy it?
Here we are giving our opinions on a subject or topic not facts, so nothing said here should be taken as such by a reader I'd hope except if a poster states "it is a fact that GW and Freedom Scientific are going out of business next year."
Okay noff said on that.
I don't believe Microsoft will ever compete with the smaller screen reader companies due to the flack they'd have to hear. "You are such a large company why do you need to take the business from these people?" I'd say if Microsoft seriously wanted to compete we'd have seen a screen reader before now. Think about it, how many years is it going to take for them to perfect Narrator ? They have the power and the research dollars, I just think they really don't wish to.
True. Noone should take facts away from this topic. It is by no means factual. All we can do now is guess the fall of these companies.
It is different from talking from the general point of view than talking rubbish. Yes, everyone are free to speech and free to express opinion. But to plain blindingly post about something that is not true, is some sort of lies.
sorry but freedom scientific and GW micro are not falling any time soon, better you count your pennies be fore that ever happens. Some of us still use windows so jaws and GW micro will be around for a bit.
Well, I vow to use Linux from here out, because not only is it better, but it's faster, and more secure.
Buttercup, I think you need to go back an read post 33 again.
I never took for real as saying an upgrade would cost $ 650 or 700 he was simpley stating that in order to make a change it would cost him much more than it would to upgrade his current jaws upgrade. (IE) $240 for a jaws upgrade and $650 to 700 to buy a complete version of window eyes.
In this case, he's accurate and on the lower side, of the exact full cost purchase prices you yourself quoted from the gw micro site. I think simpley you miss read his original post, and took it the wrong way!
I've been a Window-Eyes user for five years and, on the one or two occasions I've needed to call GW's tech support in that time it's been as close to perfect as I could want. They were courteous and elped me fix te problems I had in a timely manner or, if there wasn't in fact a problem with the software but rather with what I was doing, they told me so in a helpful rather than patronizing manner. I never ad such a good experience with JFW tech support, at least not once Henter-Joyce and Blazie Engineering got married and became Greedom Science Fiction.
JFW, if I have the opinion, is a bit of a laugh. You've got the biggest screenreader, yet it is unstable. That's where I think they generate a portion of their revenue. I've never needed to call them, but my phone charges 800 numbers.
Well all I can say for sure is it was good to see them finally lose one of these law suits of theirs. That bullshit over System Access was outrageous enough. Just because the original name was Freedom Box didn't mean people would assume it was a Greedom product. But they had to come up with a better excuse since as I understand it the real reason they were suing Serotek was actually over something even more ridiculous. Then to sue GW over a placemarker feature on web pages, a feature which I need hardly point out was working more or less correctly in the first release of Window-Eyes that incorporated it. I couldn't sayy the sameabout JAWS. But it's like Bassplayer said. AWS is unstable. Sure it was a decent product back when it was a Henter-Joyce product and WIndow-Eyes hadn't yet evolved into what it is today. It started to go downhill after HJ and BLazie decided to get married. But probably the only real reason JFW is "the leading product in the area of screen reading technology" is because voc rehab organizations for the blind, whether in the US or abroad, don't always make their clients aware of the fact that there are other options out there. Neither do they encourage said clients to try demos of the competition.
I appriciate that vote Big Dog. I was really not trying to give out bad info just stating my case.
How has HAL coming along. Is Dolphin still a sad state of affairs or have they gotten there stuff together.
Well it's not called Hal anymore from wat I've heard. It's called Supernova, not that I've ever used it
Me neither. I've a mind to do so, though.